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	<title>Comments on: Thoughts on the Issue at Hand</title>
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	<description>your #1 source for stuff i think</description>
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		<title>By: UBC Insiders &#124; AMS Council Votes Unanimously to Withdraw UN Complaint, Ask For Resignations of President and VPX</title>
		<link>http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/2009/11/28/thoughts-on-the-issue-at-hand/comment-page-3/#comment-195</link>
		<dc:creator>UBC Insiders &#124; AMS Council Votes Unanimously to Withdraw UN Complaint, Ask For Resignations of President and VPX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 05:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/?p=276#comment-195</guid>
		<description>[...] Geoff Costeloe, vice-chair of the UBC Vancouver Senate with a very good piece on idealists and realists. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Geoff Costeloe, vice-chair of the UBC Vancouver Senate with a very good piece on idealists and realists. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: xandor_lv</title>
		<link>http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/2009/11/28/thoughts-on-the-issue-at-hand/comment-page-2/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>xandor_lv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/?p=276#comment-82</guid>
		<description>I want to quote your post in my blog. It can?
And you et an account on Twitter?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to quote your post in my blog. It can?<br />
And you et an account on Twitter?</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Costeloe</title>
		<link>http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/2009/11/28/thoughts-on-the-issue-at-hand/comment-page-2/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Costeloe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/?p=276#comment-57</guid>
		<description>Richard,
Thanks for your comment. After reading it I think I might have to have a &#039;fizzy anesthetic&#039; as my faith in humanity and common sense has been shaken again.

Its almost noon right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard,<br />
Thanks for your comment. After reading it I think I might have to have a &#8216;fizzy anesthetic&#8217; as my faith in humanity and common sense has been shaken again.</p>
<p>Its almost noon right?</p>
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		<title>By: RIchard Roe</title>
		<link>http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/2009/11/28/thoughts-on-the-issue-at-hand/comment-page-2/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>RIchard Roe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/?p=276#comment-56</guid>
		<description>Realists will never win &#039;cause they&#039;re dishonest.

Reality is the original Rorschach, etc. etc.

A realist is merely a calcified idealist---or an idealist who is at best confused, at worst a straight-up liar.  Pick one.

I&#039;ve never met Blake or Tim, but the fact that they have all you straight folx up in arms is reason enough for me to believe they&#039;re on the right track.

Here is the elephant in the room: why does any student believe in pay-as-you-go-tuition?

Answer:  Most everyone is capable of doing a University degree; the limiting factor is money, especially during early childhood, as families without means will push their kids towards trades/etc. rather than gambling that joining the Convocation will pay off.

When UBC was founded, Liberal Arts Instruction was free---indeed, the University was to stand in relation to the High School as the High School stands to the Elementary school---anyone with capacity may freely progress through the system and come out the top a Gentleman---yea, even Women used to be &quot;Artsmen.&quot;

So, less empty bubble about &quot;trust&quot;, &quot;democracy&quot;, etc.  The University has for many decades now ignored its purpose, which is to provide free Liberal Arts education to British Columbians, not to provide pay-as-you-go Courses for the sons and daughters of upper-middle-class Canadians.

And to top it all off, you use alcohol to relax.  A creature stupid enough to enjoy alcohol mouthing off about democracy, trust, etc?

Go have some fizzy anaesthetic---it will take away the pain of having to deal with &quot;idealists&quot;, which appears here to be shorthand for &quot;thinkers opposed to vicious herd animals.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Realists will never win &#8217;cause they&#8217;re dishonest.</p>
<p>Reality is the original Rorschach, etc. etc.</p>
<p>A realist is merely a calcified idealist&#8212;or an idealist who is at best confused, at worst a straight-up liar.  Pick one.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never met Blake or Tim, but the fact that they have all you straight folx up in arms is reason enough for me to believe they&#8217;re on the right track.</p>
<p>Here is the elephant in the room: why does any student believe in pay-as-you-go-tuition?</p>
<p>Answer:  Most everyone is capable of doing a University degree; the limiting factor is money, especially during early childhood, as families without means will push their kids towards trades/etc. rather than gambling that joining the Convocation will pay off.</p>
<p>When UBC was founded, Liberal Arts Instruction was free&#8212;indeed, the University was to stand in relation to the High School as the High School stands to the Elementary school&#8212;anyone with capacity may freely progress through the system and come out the top a Gentleman&#8212;yea, even Women used to be &#8220;Artsmen.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, less empty bubble about &#8220;trust&#8221;, &#8220;democracy&#8221;, etc.  The University has for many decades now ignored its purpose, which is to provide free Liberal Arts education to British Columbians, not to provide pay-as-you-go Courses for the sons and daughters of upper-middle-class Canadians.</p>
<p>And to top it all off, you use alcohol to relax.  A creature stupid enough to enjoy alcohol mouthing off about democracy, trust, etc?</p>
<p>Go have some fizzy anaesthetic&#8212;it will take away the pain of having to deal with &#8220;idealists&#8221;, which appears here to be shorthand for &#8220;thinkers opposed to vicious herd animals.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jiyoon</title>
		<link>http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/2009/11/28/thoughts-on-the-issue-at-hand/comment-page-2/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>Jiyoon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 07:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/?p=276#comment-52</guid>
		<description>Great piece, Geoff. Please be aware that there are many students who appreciate your thoughts on these matter.

Oh man, December 2nd can&#039;t come soon enough...!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great piece, Geoff. Please be aware that there are many students who appreciate your thoughts on these matter.</p>
<p>Oh man, December 2nd can&#8217;t come soon enough&#8230;!</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Costeloe</title>
		<link>http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/2009/11/28/thoughts-on-the-issue-at-hand/comment-page-2/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Costeloe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 01:56:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/?p=276#comment-51</guid>
		<description>Chelsea,
Thanks for your comment.
I did write the article in a bit of a rush so I&#039;m sure that there might be a few spelling mistakes. I have run a spell checker on the article so I thought it was okay. It actually took less than your prescripted 2 seconds. Please point out to me where there are mistakes and I&#039;ll be sure to fix them promptly. You&#039;ll notice that the small italic note at the bottom of the post. That&#039;s my way of trying to keep my article transparent so I&#039;ll also be sure to include any changes in there.

I have never claimed for an instant that this article was not an opinion piece. In fact in the first few lines I actually state that this is my opinion but it will likely resonate with many councilors and students who interact with the AMS.

In regards to me writing this just to &#039;gain followers&#039; I have a few comments. Certainly there is something a little selfish and egotistical about having your own blog and url (especially when it is named after yourself). The catchphrase in the header attests to as much. So whilst the purpose of a blog like this is to popularize my opinion, I don&#039;t think that&#039;s what you had in mind. 

I would ask you then what the point of having more followers would be. I am not planning on running for any new positions during my time left here at UBC (except for maybe a committee chair on Wednesday but that&#039;s small beans). I am not looking to start a cult or religion (although that be pretty cool...)

You are also correct that I haven&#039;t defended Tom Dovorak&#039;s statements. It isn&#039;t my place to defend his statements nor to defend the actions of any other realist. He isn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; realist as you suggest. As I stated in the article, realists and idealists come from all stripes and will certainly disagree on issues, we won&#039;t want to defend each other all the time, we will want to attack each other.

Having said that, Tom (unlike Blake and Tim) was very forthcoming with an apology, e-mailing council before the meeting saying that he apologized and apologizing again at the meeting. There have been no more problems from him after the fact. If I&#039;m gauging council correctly (an opinion again: watch out!) I would say that if Blake had apologized immediately for his action and maybe even shown up on Saturday council would be seeking slightly less blood. He hasn&#039;t.

As for Blake and Tim being &lt;i&gt;real&lt;/i&gt; students. Of course they are real. I can reach out and touch them. They even paid their student fees this year unlike their co-complainant Tristan Markle. Let me rephrase my word real then and replace is with &#039;not crazy ideologues&#039;.

Does that work better?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chelsea,<br />
Thanks for your comment.<br />
I did write the article in a bit of a rush so I&#8217;m sure that there might be a few spelling mistakes. I have run a spell checker on the article so I thought it was okay. It actually took less than your prescripted 2 seconds. Please point out to me where there are mistakes and I&#8217;ll be sure to fix them promptly. You&#8217;ll notice that the small italic note at the bottom of the post. That&#8217;s my way of trying to keep my article transparent so I&#8217;ll also be sure to include any changes in there.</p>
<p>I have never claimed for an instant that this article was not an opinion piece. In fact in the first few lines I actually state that this is my opinion but it will likely resonate with many councilors and students who interact with the AMS.</p>
<p>In regards to me writing this just to &#8216;gain followers&#8217; I have a few comments. Certainly there is something a little selfish and egotistical about having your own blog and url (especially when it is named after yourself). The catchphrase in the header attests to as much. So whilst the purpose of a blog like this is to popularize my opinion, I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s what you had in mind. </p>
<p>I would ask you then what the point of having more followers would be. I am not planning on running for any new positions during my time left here at UBC (except for maybe a committee chair on Wednesday but that&#8217;s small beans). I am not looking to start a cult or religion (although that be pretty cool&#8230;)</p>
<p>You are also correct that I haven&#8217;t defended Tom Dovorak&#8217;s statements. It isn&#8217;t my place to defend his statements nor to defend the actions of any other realist. He isn&#8217;t <i>my</i> realist as you suggest. As I stated in the article, realists and idealists come from all stripes and will certainly disagree on issues, we won&#8217;t want to defend each other all the time, we will want to attack each other.</p>
<p>Having said that, Tom (unlike Blake and Tim) was very forthcoming with an apology, e-mailing council before the meeting saying that he apologized and apologizing again at the meeting. There have been no more problems from him after the fact. If I&#8217;m gauging council correctly (an opinion again: watch out!) I would say that if Blake had apologized immediately for his action and maybe even shown up on Saturday council would be seeking slightly less blood. He hasn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>As for Blake and Tim being <i>real</i> students. Of course they are real. I can reach out and touch them. They even paid their student fees this year unlike their co-complainant Tristan Markle. Let me rephrase my word real then and replace is with &#8216;not crazy ideologues&#8217;.</p>
<p>Does that work better?</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Ferreras</title>
		<link>http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/2009/11/28/thoughts-on-the-issue-at-hand/comment-page-2/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Ferreras</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/?p=276#comment-50</guid>
		<description>Geoff,

You have my respect for accepting criticism on that. I don&#039;t think CASA is beyond reproach but it&#039;s all that UBC students have on a federal level. 

Provincially, I find the AMS is better at lobbying for itself than is the alternative (the CFS), which I&#039;m still convinced that Blake and Tim would usher right past Blanca and on to campus if it had the chance. Thank goodness for the organization&#039;s antiquated laws that require a referendum to adopt it.

Aside from the CASA vote I&#039;m very impressed at the work and the commentary you&#039;ve brought forth on behalf of students.

As for your other critic above, I&#039;m surprised she&#039;s so hard on you. One of the people she supports, Tim Chu, can barely string a coherent sentence together. Anything these guys bring up to defend themselves is a straw man that detracts from their corrupt actions in going behind council&#039;s back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff,</p>
<p>You have my respect for accepting criticism on that. I don&#8217;t think CASA is beyond reproach but it&#8217;s all that UBC students have on a federal level. </p>
<p>Provincially, I find the AMS is better at lobbying for itself than is the alternative (the CFS), which I&#8217;m still convinced that Blake and Tim would usher right past Blanca and on to campus if it had the chance. Thank goodness for the organization&#8217;s antiquated laws that require a referendum to adopt it.</p>
<p>Aside from the CASA vote I&#8217;m very impressed at the work and the commentary you&#8217;ve brought forth on behalf of students.</p>
<p>As for your other critic above, I&#8217;m surprised she&#8217;s so hard on you. One of the people she supports, Tim Chu, can barely string a coherent sentence together. Anything these guys bring up to defend themselves is a straw man that detracts from their corrupt actions in going behind council&#8217;s back.</p>
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		<title>By: Chelsea</title>
		<link>http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/2009/11/28/thoughts-on-the-issue-at-hand/comment-page-2/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Chelsea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/?p=276#comment-49</guid>
		<description>As a member of the student body at large, I would like to disagree with most of what you&#039;ve stated here.  You speak on the fact that actions should be based on whether they are warranted or not, etc.  After reading your article, it seems that this is largely based on your opinion and much less based on fact.  You accuse Blake and Tim of acting irrationally to gain followers, but at the same time, I think you could almost be accused of the same.  Quickly writing up this rant on your blog, trying to make your case heard in whichever way you possibly can.  Whether that involves demeaning other individuals or not.  From an adult perspective I have always thought the best way to conflict resolution was through a matter of mature discussion not petty insults back and forth to one another (via internet, in this case!)
From the perspective of an educated student, your claims might have been slightly more substantiated had you taken 2 seconds to use a spelling or grammar check, although I strongly believe it would have taken more than that.

You say you think real students should run for these elections?  Please, be my guest and define what a real student is to you.  As far as I knew, Blake and Tim qualify as real students.  
While you beat down Blake and Tim, you may want to take the time to defend one of your &#039;realists&#039; recent actions.  I am referring to those of Tom Dvorak.  I don&#039;t think the general student population is in support of trivialization of such events as the Holocaust.  

Although, your frustrations may be real, you might want to further substantiate them before trying to make a case based on them.  Next time, base your case on some facts and not just your outlandish emotions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a member of the student body at large, I would like to disagree with most of what you&#8217;ve stated here.  You speak on the fact that actions should be based on whether they are warranted or not, etc.  After reading your article, it seems that this is largely based on your opinion and much less based on fact.  You accuse Blake and Tim of acting irrationally to gain followers, but at the same time, I think you could almost be accused of the same.  Quickly writing up this rant on your blog, trying to make your case heard in whichever way you possibly can.  Whether that involves demeaning other individuals or not.  From an adult perspective I have always thought the best way to conflict resolution was through a matter of mature discussion not petty insults back and forth to one another (via internet, in this case!)<br />
From the perspective of an educated student, your claims might have been slightly more substantiated had you taken 2 seconds to use a spelling or grammar check, although I strongly believe it would have taken more than that.</p>
<p>You say you think real students should run for these elections?  Please, be my guest and define what a real student is to you.  As far as I knew, Blake and Tim qualify as real students.<br />
While you beat down Blake and Tim, you may want to take the time to defend one of your &#8216;realists&#8217; recent actions.  I am referring to those of Tom Dvorak.  I don&#8217;t think the general student population is in support of trivialization of such events as the Holocaust.  </p>
<p>Although, your frustrations may be real, you might want to further substantiate them before trying to make a case based on them.  Next time, base your case on some facts and not just your outlandish emotions.</p>
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		<title>By: Corrine</title>
		<link>http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/2009/11/28/thoughts-on-the-issue-at-hand/comment-page-2/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>Corrine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/?p=276#comment-48</guid>
		<description>Geoff! This was excellent... you&#039;re a &quot;real student&quot;... Ever thought to run for Pres?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff! This was excellent&#8230; you&#8217;re a &#8220;real student&#8221;&#8230; Ever thought to run for Pres?</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Costeloe</title>
		<link>http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/2009/11/28/thoughts-on-the-issue-at-hand/comment-page-2/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Costeloe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.geoffcosteloe.com/?p=276#comment-47</guid>
		<description>Jesse,
I&#039;m willing to accept the criticism for that. Given what we have seen in the last few days though, and per this article, the information provided to council and the reasons behind leaving may have been a bit more of an agenda than was thought at the time. 

I do think that there were some serious flaws with CASA as well. For one, they are primarily focused on federal lobbying. While it is always good to get student representation in political offices of any level, the important decisions regarding education (and tuition/accessibility) almost exclusively stem from the provincial government. Being a national program, CASA&#039;s primary obligations were to the national level of government. In my opinion I don&#039;t know if the return per dollar spent at that level is worth it. Lobbying needs to primarily occur at the provincial level to see significant gains for students. 

Case in point would be the BC student loan program which is, almost without question, the worst in the country. I have certainly heard from upper administrators that they are keen to work towards changes in the student loan system. They have difficulty in doing so when our student government has such a tarnished reputation with the province. In fact, they are probably scared to get in the same room as our student government executive and throw their reputation in with ours. Tim and Blake may indeed feel like they are standing up for accessibility and lower tuition but at the same time are giving up be able to affect change in our own province directly. 

Proverbially, we are gaining an inch and giving up a mile. Idealists like Tim and Blake would probably say that this is a &lt;i&gt;real&lt;/i&gt; inch for a &lt;i&gt;potential&lt;/i&gt; mile. 

Myself and realists would just say that an inch is an inch and a mile is a mile. Especially when the inch is probably more of a fantasy than the mile is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesse,<br />
I&#8217;m willing to accept the criticism for that. Given what we have seen in the last few days though, and per this article, the information provided to council and the reasons behind leaving may have been a bit more of an agenda than was thought at the time. </p>
<p>I do think that there were some serious flaws with CASA as well. For one, they are primarily focused on federal lobbying. While it is always good to get student representation in political offices of any level, the important decisions regarding education (and tuition/accessibility) almost exclusively stem from the provincial government. Being a national program, CASA&#8217;s primary obligations were to the national level of government. In my opinion I don&#8217;t know if the return per dollar spent at that level is worth it. Lobbying needs to primarily occur at the provincial level to see significant gains for students. </p>
<p>Case in point would be the BC student loan program which is, almost without question, the worst in the country. I have certainly heard from upper administrators that they are keen to work towards changes in the student loan system. They have difficulty in doing so when our student government has such a tarnished reputation with the province. In fact, they are probably scared to get in the same room as our student government executive and throw their reputation in with ours. Tim and Blake may indeed feel like they are standing up for accessibility and lower tuition but at the same time are giving up be able to affect change in our own province directly. </p>
<p>Proverbially, we are gaining an inch and giving up a mile. Idealists like Tim and Blake would probably say that this is a <i>real</i> inch for a <i>potential</i> mile. </p>
<p>Myself and realists would just say that an inch is an inch and a mile is a mile. Especially when the inch is probably more of a fantasy than the mile is.</p>
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